Latest update removing dev mode

[Anonymous User]

Originally by JaBuzzard: (Post 1 page 49)

SeeMoreDigital wrote:
What???

A NOW TV branded box retails at just £15. 00. The Roku boxes cost signi��cantly more! Somebodies
taking a hit for the differences!

Yes Roku are not making a pro��t. There is a large difference between zero pro��t and a subsidy. The bill
of materials for a NowTV box is most likely well under £15, and my bet is most of the NowTV boxes sold
are not the £15 ones either , because wait a bit and you can get one with a pass for the same amount of
money or even less, to the point where people who never sideloaded anything have draw fulls of the
boxes, because even an offer of £20 for a box with a 3 month entertainment pass (and there have been
lots of better offers) is cheaper than buying three months of passes which would cost you £21 and you
get a spare remote too.

Originally by Wufflebonk: (Post 2 Page 49)

jabuzzard wrote:
SeeMoreDigital wrote:
What???

A NOW TV branded box retails at just £15. 00. The Roku boxes cost signi��cantly more!
Somebodies taking a hit for the differences!

Yes Roku are not making a pro��t. There is a large difference between zero pro��t and a subsidy. The
bill of materials for a NowTV box is most likely well under £15, and my bet is most of the NowTV
boxes sold are not the £15 ones either , because wait a bit and you can get one with a pass for the
same amount of money or even less, to the point where people who never sideloaded anything
have draw fulls of the boxes, because even an offer of £20 for a box with a 3 month entertainment
pass (and there have been lots of better offers) is cheaper than buying three months of passes
which would cost you £21 and you get a spare remote too.

I'll let you carry on with this one 🙂

I'm busy doing other things....

Besides I see @SeeMoreDigital and co have gotten out the vinyl's again... damn they must be so
scratched and broken now the amount of times they've been played. I think Violins are probably all but
worn out too...

Originally by ukbobboy:

@SeeMoreDigital

Hi again SMD

Unfortunately, your answer shows that you have made an assumption based on another assumption,
i.e. if a Roku 3 retail cost £70. 00 and a NowTV black box is £15. 00 then someone is loosing out
somewhere.

However , my experience is somewhat different, remember when video VHS recorder , way back when,
cost on average £400. 00 retail. Did you know that they only cost £71. 00 to manufacture, package and
ship from Japan to the UK, the additional costs were mainly just "mark-up", i.e. what the market will
bear .

Since retail economics has not changed since then, just the products sold, I would suggest you rethink
your "highly subsidised" mantra, unless you can prove otherwise.


UK Bob

Originally by 4268:

@ukbobboy have you considered that there is such a thing as a loss leader .

Originally by Eddie-M (NowTV Team):

Hi @Anonymous User


Thanks for raising your concerns to us here on the Community, In relation to what a Now TV agent has
said about Plex being illegal your correct it is not however the content available to use with in Plex and
other Apps like it can be seen as illegal and therefore puts Now TV in a difficult position with Studios
and Record companies and therefore the decision was made to remove the Dev Mode which enabled
the ability to install Plex via Sideloading due to Plex not being available in the Now TV app store. Also if
apps are being used via the Now T v box that are not available in the App store provided and are
installed by other means i.e Sideloading then Now TV have the right to remove that functionallity if we
wish to do so. If your complaint relates to official apps in the app store available via the Now TV box
then please do raise those concerns with us and we will do what we can can to rectify them. However if
it only relates to an app not offically available on the Now TV box then we cannot do anything further
and there would be no legal basis for us to put that function back as it is against our terms of use. I
hope this clears it up for you and if you have any further questions please do ask away and we will do
our best to answer or at least get the answer for you.


Thanks
Eddie

Originally by DessieB:

Hi Eddie,

I wonder if you could take a moment to explain how customers using Plex on a NOW TV box puts Now
TV in a difficult position with Studios and Record companies, but Apple TV, Amazon Fire TV and Roku
all provide Plex for their Streaming boxes and Google provide Plex for android TV boxes without this
putting them in a difficult position with Studios and Record companies?

Thanks
DessieB

Originally by Eddie-M (Official NowTV Team)

Hi @Anonymous User

This would come down to legal notices Now TV have received and therefore have had to remove the
fuction due to some Customers using Plex to watch Pirated Content. So the Dev Mode has been
disabled to prevent Pirated content in the future which in turn has disabled Plex which again can be
used to access Content which can be seen as illegal. This is the steps we found nessecerry to take to
prevent this from happening. If others have not done this then we cannot speak for them we feel this
was the best step to take.


Cheers

Originally by DessieB

Hi Eddie,

So are you suggesting that Apple, Amazon, Roku and Google have not received similar legal notices, or
that they have received similar notices but have chosen to ignore them?

DessieB

Originally by Eddie-M (Official NowTV Team):

No at all @Anonymous User


I'm not suggesting anything of the sort. I am telling you what Now TV have received and what we have
done to rectify it if other companies have recieved the same notices then i'm sure they are taking the
Steps nessecerry to rectify that however we at Now TV are not privy to that information and therefore
cannot discuss what other companies intend to do if anything or if they have recieved the same
notices we can only discuss what Now TV have recieved and what we have done to ��x it. At the end of
the day Plex is not an offical app in the App store via the Now TV box therefore Now TV have no
legal obligation to provide that app and therefore can remove any means of accessing it.


Cheers

Originally by MattPenfold:

Eddie-M wrote:
Hi @Anonymous User


Thanks for raising your concerns to us here on the Community, In relation to what a Now TV agent
has said about Plex being illegal your correct it is not however the content available to use with in
Plex and other Apps like it can be seen as illegal and therefore puts Now TV in a difficult position
with Studios and Record companies and therefore the decision was made to remove the Dev Mode
which enabled the ability to install Plex via Sideloading due to Plex not being available in the Now
TV app store. Also if apps are being used via the Now T v box that are not available in the App store
provided and are installed by other means i.e Sideloading then Now TV have the right to remove
that functionallity if we wish to do so. If your complaint relates to official apps in the app store
available via the Now TV box then please do raise those concerns with us and we will do what we
can can to rectify them. However if it only relates to an app not offically available on the Now TV box
then we cannot do anything further and there would be no legal basis for us to put that function
back as it is against our terms of use. I hope this clears it up for you and if you have any further
questions please do ask away and we will do our best to answer or at least get the answer for you.


Thanks
Eddie
So why was I told Plex is illegal Eddie? You admit is untrue, yet that did not stop your colleagues from
say Plex is illegal software. What do you intend to do about their lack of honesty?

You claim you have the right to remove side-loaded apps, but you failed to offer any evidence you have
that right. Since you offered no evidence I can dismiss your claim you have that rigjt as baseless. You
have a choice. You can either offer that evidence, or accept you lied to me.

Originally by MattPenfold: (Post 1 on page 50)

Eddie,
You have admitted that Not TV altered my box. The law, in the form of the Computer Misuse Act 1990 is
clear in this regard. Unless you can show Now TV were authorized to access my box and make
alterations NOW TV have committed a criminal offence under Section 35 of that act. It is possible that
Now TV could be considered to have committed an offence under Section 37 , if there was intend to
impair use of the computer . A Section 35 offence carries a maximum sentence of 2 years
imprisonment, and a Section 37 offence carries a maximum of 10 years. Both offences can also carry
an unlimited Ƭne.
So you can only claim that Now TV have not comitted an offence under either Section 35 or 37 if you
can show you had authorisation to access my Now TV box. If you cannot do so, you will be admitting
that NOW TV commited a criminal offence.

Originally by WuffleBonk: (Post 2 on page 50)

@Anonymous User from NowTV, I think there's an age old addidge here that relates to Digging holes and knowing
when to stop 😄

From what I can see, your just not doing ANYTHING to help here, except making up what looks like
semi plausible explanations and hoping that we'll all buy into it.

I have to tip my hat and give you points for trying though. As myself and my co-conspiritors have
recently discovered, we can actually use the official, authourized apps that ARE in the NowTV store,
and pre installed on the box, INCLUDING YOUR VERY OWN NOWTV APP , to play ANY CONTENT we
want, including pirated content should we so wish, I wonder what the recording industry and
music/movie producers that sent NowTV those cease and desist plex letters would do if they found out
about that fact???

I think you'd be forced to remove your own apps, and every official app from the box, IF what your
trying to spin to us all, is actually true....

[Anonymous User]

Wonder how long this post will stay up! 

[Anonymous User]

The fact that this happened at exactly the same time as the big ISPs got together in their agreement to curb the possibility of people being able to illegally watch live football streams - speaks volumes. If this is the real reason you have removed Plex - then just man up and admit it - we all know it has nothing to do with movie studios. It's been done for 1 of 2 reasons - either because NowTV don't want us to be able to access our LEGALLY owned media collection via the box or because of the aforementioned football rubbish (which by the way is impossible to enact anyway - because there are always ways around the blocking techniquies the ISPs are using). 

Oh - and while I'm here - I'd just like to point out - that the current UK law is that it is illegal to distribute (ie upload) copyrighted material - which is why people using peer2peer networks were breaking the law. It is not however illegal to download or stream copyright material because you are not distributing it - in this case - it would be the original uploader and the site hosting the content that is guilty of distributing the content. The watcher - has not broken any laws - the "receiving stolen goods" line has been tried before - but doesn't hold up - because the goods haven't actually been stolen.

[Anonymous User]

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@Anonymous User wrote:

The fact that this happened at exactly the same time as the big ISPs got together in their agreement to curb the possibility of people being able to illegally watch live football streams - speaks volumes. If this is the real reason you have removed Plex - then just man up and admit it - we all know it has nothing to do with movie studios. It's been done for 1 of 2 reasons - either because NowTV don't want us to be able to access our LEGALLY owned media collection via the box or because of the aforementioned football rubbish (which by the way is impossible to enact anyway - because there are always ways around the blocking techniquies the ISPs are using). 

Oh - and while I'm here - I'd just like to point out - that the current UK law is that it is illegal to distribute (ie upload) copyrighted material - which is why people using peer2peer networks were breaking the law. It is not however illegal to download or stream copyright material because you are not distributing it - in this case - it would be the original uploader and the site hosting the content that is guilty of distributing the content. The watcher - has not broken any laws - the "receiving stolen goods" line has been tried before - but doesn't hold up - because the goods haven't actually been stolen.

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Two of  Now TV's online chat support staff have told me that Plex itself is illegal software. When I gave them a link to the GPL licence it is released under they were not interested. Now TV are being ibconsistant in their response, which is either a sign they are incomptentent, or they are not being honest. I would say it is a mix of both. 

I am still waiting for Now TV to offer any evidence that Plex is illegal software. Making claims that cannot be supported is intellectually dishonest. They have also claimed they have the right to update Now TV boxes, but again have offered no evidence to support that claim. That is potentially serious as under UK law it is an offence to tamper with a computer with proper authority. The courts would not accept a simple assertion they have that right. They would also take a dim view that when asked for evidence they were unable or unwilling to produce any. 

[Anonymous User]

It's worth nothing that whether they have the right to remove a feature the box shipped with and whether we agreed to it is irrelevant for 2 reasons.  First UK law generally accepts that expecting people to read pages and pages of T&Cs before they can use something they have purchased is unreasonable and you can't claim that someone has accepted the T&Cs in this case.

Second - there is precedent here - when Sony removed the "OtherOS" feature of the Playstation - they eventually had to settle with the people suing https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/06/if-you-used-to-run-linux-on-your-ps3-you-could-get-55-fr... as noted here.

[Anonymous User]

I had a look at the terms and conditions posted on their website, and it does not mention the right to update Now TV boxes at all. It could be they are relying on another set of T&Cs, but if they are they do not seem to have put them online. 

UK law generally requires that where consent is required that consent must be explicity given. In otherwords the courts take a dim view of hiding consent away in a long list of T&Cs. 

In addition, their current advertising talks about no contract. That claim could well render any T&Cs largely inaffective. In such cases the courts will tend to give more credence to the most prominent claim. 

[Anonymous User]

Now TV seem to be deleting posts that question their removing dev mode. They have been asked to explain the legal authority they relied upon do do this, but refuse to answer. This suggests they know they broke the law, and do not want  people knowing about it. 

If they have nothing to hide they will offer an explanation. If they delete this post I will consider they accept they have no legal authority to update boxes without permission and thus broke the law. 

[SeeMoreDigital]

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@Anonymous User wrote:

If they have nothing to hide they will offer an explanation. 

---

An explanation was given. That being said, in my opinion whether any of you choose to believe it or not is completely immaterial as 'sideloading' was never an officially advertised, officially installed or officially supported feature!

You've all had your fun being able to sideload apps on NOW TV branded devices but now it's over. So I suggest you all buy Roku devices and take your 'sideloading' discussions over to the Roku forum!

---

@Anonymous User wrote:

If they delete this post I will consider they accept they have no legal authority to update boxes without permission and thus broke the law. 

---

Sufficed to say, now that the unsupported 'sideloading' feature has been removed from NOW TV branded devices. I will be recommending that any further off-topic discussions relating to sideloading should be removed from the forum.

Cheers all

[Anonymous User]

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@SeeMoreDigital wrote:

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@Anonymous User wrote:

If they have nothing to hide they will offer an explanation. 

---

An explanation was given. That being said, in my opinion whether any of you choose to believe it or not is completely immaterial as 'sideloading' was never an officially advertised, officially installed or officially supported feature!

You've all had your fun being able to sideload apps on NOW TV branded devices but now it's over. So I suggest you all buy Roku devices and take your 'sideloading' discussions over to the Roku forum!

---

@Anonymous User wrote:

If they delete this post I will consider they accept they have no legal authority to update boxes without permission and thus broke the law. 

---

Sufficed to say, now that the unsupported 'sideloading' feature has been removed from NOW TV branded devices. I will be recommending that any further off-topic discussions relating to sideloading should be removed from the forum.

Cheers all

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Then would you please let me have the explanation. I have seen the argument that allowing Plex to be sideloaded gave people access to material that was illegal, bit that is not an explanation. 

For Now TV to alter my box they needed my permission. So if you have an explanation of where and when they gained that explanation please provide it. If you cannot then I will be requesting you be banned from these boards for dishonesty. 

[SeeMoreDigital]

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@Anonymous User wrote:

For Now TV to alter my box they needed my permission. 

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You're living in cloud cuckoo land @Anonymous User,

NOW TV don't need your permission to remove a feature that was never officially advertised, officially installed or officially supported.

EDIT: As you can see both 'off-topic' discussions have been merged together before their eventual removal.